Dark Elf

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Postby Witness on Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:53 pm

sol77 wrote:How is she comming along?

She says that she looks 'badass' wearing the new fitted, custom-made boots and gloves:

Image
Boots were painstakingly re-mapped to use the regular boot skins. I was planning on a couple of other boot styles, but I'm still a little leery of texturing boots at the moment, so they will have to wait.

Image
Type 1: fitted gloves with long sleeve area
Type 2: open-fingered, fitted gloves with less sleeve area
Type 3: bracers

The first glove type has been re-mapped to use the regular glove skins. Type two will probably also use the regular glove skins, but the third will use custom skins to allow for less distorted texturing of the bracer. Type two and three are not yet re-mapped, so that's why the textures look so twisted in the screenshots of those types, and no, that's not a chunk of the forearm poking through the glove surface (screenshot of type 2), it's a white smudge from the glove texture, heh...

If you didn't know, creating fitted gloves that fit around an unculled hand (so that type 2 and 3 gloves could be created) can be a huge pain in the you-know-where. In particular, checking the overlapped result in several hand positions to locate and fix the areas that get stretched/deformed during some common animations is a hair-puller. That's possibly one reason why the original farmgirl gloves are so bulky - to quickly compensate for the differences in arm movement (also, the farmgirl's hands are culled so there's no problem with fingers poking out). I reweighed some of the arm/hand/finger vertices in the body model to correspond to those set for the gloves so that the movement is more synchronized.


Since I can barely draw stick figures I have still stayed away from gmax.

I was passingly familiar with the 3dsmax interface when I first installed gmax about a week and a half ago, but could barely model anything but a box-like fork. I read ghastley's head modeling tutorial, and he made it seem like a feasible task, so I gave it a shot. It took a while to get it working still, and I had to restart several times. But afterwards, I was happy with the results and encouraged to keep on practicing, and that's the stage I'm at now. I think it takes just a bit of experience visualizing things in 3d space/perspective, and the rest will come with practice.


Nope, it's still there. Right click and select "unhide all". If that fails, go through each of the selection options (vertex, line, face, poly, element) and click the "unhide all" button on each.

Ah hah! Didn't realize that mesh unhiding was depending on the current selection. Selecting the right modifier stack suboption does the trick every time, as long as I haven't deleted everything else from the scene already.
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Postby niceguy on Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:13 am

I loke those braciers. Hmm is it possible to create assymetrical armor pieces, in this case a piece of armor that are mounted as a "glove", and covers most of the left arms inner side while it doesn't exist on the right arm. Such protective items are used by archers to prevent the string from harming the arm. In DS that could mean an boost to the ranged skill due to the fact that the archer don't have to be as carful about the bowstring. Still this would be meaningless if the archers wear an armor that cover the whole arm but medival archers were frekvently unarmored.
Last edited by niceguy on Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sol77 on Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:08 am

Witness >> Oh my... That is what DS characters should look like.
Beautiful work. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Postby Witness on Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:01 am

niceguy wrote:Hmm is it possible to create assymetrical armor pieces, in this case a piece of armor that are mounted as a "glove", and covers most of the left arms inner side while it doesn't exist on the right arm. Such protective items are used by archers to prevent the string from harming the arm.

Yes, the gauntlet model types include meshes for each arm, so new gauntlet models can be asymmetrical. I think that the archer protective sleeve would be a nice addition.


Type 2 and 3 gloves hastily texture mapped, and all are displaying gauntlet skin 024 in the following image (snapped in Radeem's Bazaar map b/c of the softer lighting and larger camera range):
Image
Last edited by Witness on Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Xaa on Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:11 am

Suggestion:

Instead of having to fiddle with the texture mapping and vert weighting on the base model to get everything to work perfectly for the covered fingers, try just hiding the forearms and hands on the base model. Then, on the glove models where fingers and hands show, have hands mapped to the face skin. The glove models should work like any other armor type - you can have multiple textures, and you can call base textures, as well.

I haven't tried this myself, but it should work. Remember to not over-write your working files when you try this, however, in case it doesn't work.
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Postby Witness on Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:03 am

Xaa wrote: The glove models should work like any other armor type - you can have multiple textures, and you can call base textures, as well.

Weighing the vertices of the base model based on the glove is easier than weighing the glove based on the base model, which is why I did it that way. I still have to account for the upper edges of the forearm (i.e. near the upper arm), which was the second major grief-causing distortion hotspot (the first being the finger areas). I wouldn't mind trying to map the hand skin though.

I'm not sure how to set up the multimaterial to query the base skin. I checked out helmets, which seem to use this technique, and it seems to set the first submaterial label to "skin" with a diffuse map labeled "Map #0" (which is then set to a random farmgirl face skin). Following this naming convention is enough to tell the game to use an existing face skin or is there an option somewhere?
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Postby Xaa on Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:16 am

Witness wrote:
Xaa wrote: The glove models should work like any other armor type - you can have multiple textures, and you can call base textures, as well.

Weighing the vertices of the base model based on the glove is easier than weighing the glove based on the base model, which is why I did it that way. I still have to account for the upper edges of the forearm (i.e. near the upper arm), which was the second major grief-causing distortion hotspot (the first being the finger areas). I wouldn't mind trying to map the hand skin though.

I'm not sure how to set up the multimaterial to query the base skin. I checked out helmets, which seem to use this technique, and it seems to set the first submaterial label to "skin" with a diffuse map labeled "Map #0" (which is then set to a random farmgirl face skin). Following this naming convention is enough to tell the game to use an existing face skin or is there an option somewhere?

For the fingerless gloves, you might try starting with a base mesh, delete everything except the hands, then merge the mesh for fingerless gloves sans fingers to create one mesh. It will have both textures already declared, and should work in-game (if not, you can always hex-edit the texture calls in the resulting file to get it right). And, of course, weight the verts. No one is going to notice if the hands don't move precisely the way they did without the gloves, so you don't have to match the vert weighting exactly. For the bracers, do the same, but use the entire hand. For the full gloves they don't need to change. Instead, just set the base mesh so that the arm from below the elbow on down is considered "hand" faces, and hidden when gloves are worn - this eliminates any possibility of the hand showing through on any of the gloves.

Note, however, that all your glove creations may have problems when the character is wearing thick armor (like plate) or a dress/robe. The glove types in DS are all called by each glove template, depending on what armor/clothing you are wearing. There are two types of gloves in DS - 1_a and 1_b. Which is called when is, unfortunately, not something that can be specified to individual characters - the calls are in world\global\ armor_lookup.gas, and as you can see by looking at it, you have two choices - A or B. Though you can change this to call other gauntlet types, the changes apply to ALL characters. That means you would have to create new glove meshes for all four character types if you intend to fiddle with it (farmboy, farmgirl, dwarf, skeleton).
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Postby Witness on Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:23 am

Xaa wrote: Note, however, that all your glove creations are going to have problems when the character is wearing thick armor (like plate) or a dress/robe. The glove types in DS are all called by each glove template, depending on what armor/clothing you are wearing. The normal glove is called when the character is wearing thin-sleeved armor (or nothing), the abbreviated glove is called for thick-sleeved armor or robes, etc.

Right, they're (currently, type#_a, type#_b and type#_c) different models for different armor types mapped in armor_lookup.gas, and I'm guessing that it may be possible to reuse the same glove models for all glove subtypes if the armor models are changed, since the default farmgirl ones are hideously oversized in relation to the currently undersized darkelf girl.
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Postby Xaa on Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:33 am

Witness wrote: Right, they're (currently, type#_a, type#_b and type#_c) different models for different armor types mapped in armor_lookup.gas, and I'm guessing that it may be possible to reuse the same glove models for all glove subtypes if the armor models are changed, since the default farmgirl ones are hideously oversized in relation to the currently undersized darkelf girl.

Yep. That's what I did with Pooka - she has two glove types (a and b.), but they're the same mesh. I fixed the problem with robes by changing the sleeves on robes so they don't flare.

As an aside, I had been considering lengthening the sleeve on the gloves for Pooka - I've already lengthened the boots, as you can see from the various screenshots I've shown of Pooka in boots, to about calf-length. I'd been considering making one set of boots that's about knee-high, and then declaring everything below the knee on the base model to be a "foot" face, and hidden. Fingerless gloves are a great idea, but not really applicable for Pooka since she only HAS fingers when she's wearing gloves (IC-ly, her hands morph based on what she needs to do with them). Still, it's worth experimenting with for the male PC's that I'm working on. ;)
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Postby Xaa on Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:16 am

Hmmm... Turned out to be a lot easier to do than I thought, too. ^_^
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Postby niceguy on Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:52 am

Nice work Witnesss and Xaa, anything that helps individualise a character buy a diverse choice of equipment is a good thing. For instance there are a real abundance of good looking armors in the original DS with the downside of not showing up until after they become obsolete, thats dumb. I am a person that may choose a slightly less efficient item because it looks better. This new stuff you both has shown here really do look good. :thumbup:
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Postby Ulfman on Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:09 pm

Witness,

Would a boot that goes to mid thigh be difficult or nearly impossible? Anyway, she just keeps looking better and better! I'm also learning a lot from you and Xaa in here. Thanks. :thumbup:
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Postby sjr on Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:18 pm

Ulfman wrote: Would a boot that goes to mid thigh be difficult or nearly impossible? Anyway, she just keeps looking better and better! I'm also learning a lot from you and Xaa in here. Thanks. :thumbup:

I would think that would be fairly hard because when equiping said item you would have to alter the body armor as well for it to go up higher than the normal boot. As I understand it the boot armors only goes up to a certain point, the one you normally see. To make it any higher you would have to edit the body armor as well, pretty much doubling or more your work I would think.
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Postby niceguy on Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:09 pm

Try out Hamkats Cat-Mansion mods, including the costume mod and you will see the products of someone who doesn't know the meaning of the word "impossible". :huh:
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Postby Xaa on Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:28 pm

Ulfman wrote: Witness,

Would a boot that goes to mid thigh be difficult or nearly impossible? Anyway, she just keeps looking better and better! I'm also learning a lot from you and Xaa in here. Thanks. :thumbup:

So long as what you are trying to do is replace the default boot with your thigh-high boot, doing that isn't hard at all. Build the boot, then open the DSTK art packs for all the armor that boot appears with for the character you want to work with, then change which faces are hidden. You may need to add verts mid-thigh to make it work, and weight those verts to the thigh bones, but that's a matter of a few minutes work. Export, tank, boom - done.

Now, if you want thigh high boots as a separate piece of equipment (I.E. I can wear normal boots or thigh-high boots on the same armor mesh), now THAT is hard. You have to fiddle with the thickness of the boot so it will cover the faces of the leg and not show through when the camera is zoomed out and yet still look okay in-game, and that is not as easy as it sounds. Not at all.
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